Changing History as we approach the 20th Anniversary

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Bru328
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Changing History as we approach the 20th Anniversary

Post by Bru328 » Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:24 pm

As we approach the 20th Anniversary of Operation Desert Shield/Desert Storm I think it would be great to do some counterfactual history. What if Schwartkopf was replaced by Crosbie Saint? Any difference? Better? Worse? Same?
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Re: Changing History as we approach the 20th Anniversary

Post by FA1SGret » Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:37 pm

Don't know who Crosbie Saint is ... guess I could google it.
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Re: Changing History as we approach the 20th Anniversary

Post by haze » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:30 pm

top??... you know who he"s talking about??? cause i have know friggin ideal.
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Re: Changing History as we approach the 20th Anniversary

Post by Bru328 » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:32 pm

haze wrote:top??... you know who he"s talking about??? cause i have know friggin ideal.
USAREUR commander. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosbie_E._Saint
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Re: Changing History as we approach the 20th Anniversary

Post by lmsnh » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:25 am

I really dislike SPAMMERS and their BS.....
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Re: Changing History as we approach the 20th Anniversary

Post by redfish » Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:09 am

This whole topic has been out there for me. What ifs are a waste of time and energy.

What if my aunt had testicles?

She'd be my uncle.
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Re: Changing History as we approach the 20th Anniversary

Post by haze » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:51 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :wink: , thanks redfish!!! i needed a good laugh.
sorry... bru328 not trying to insult you nor your post.
dunno about who"d been better, but i do know who got the job done, planning, etc. so in my little world its stormin norman.
everbodied got their own thoughts ... but this is mine.
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Re: Changing History as we approach the 20th Anniversary

Post by Bru328 » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:57 pm

haze wrote::lol: :lol: :lol: :wink: , thanks redfish!!! i needed a good laugh.
sorry... bru328 not trying to insult you nor your post.
dunno about who"d been better, but i do know who got the job done, planning, etc. so in my little world its stormin norman.
everbodied got their own thoughts ... but this is mine.
All I was asking for is some opinions. This forum is about Desert Storm, right :?: Was reading Doug Macgregor's book Warrior's Rage and it got my curiousity up.
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Re: Changing History as we approach the 20th Anniversary

Post by haze » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:03 pm

again, i wasn"t trying to insult you nor post... sorry if it came across that way....
haven"t read the book, i used to read alot, but these days , really don"t have the patenice anymore....
how was the book? maybe i"ll get to read it one day.....
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Re: Changing History as we approach the 20th Anniversary

Post by Bru328 » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:22 pm

haze wrote: haven"t read the book, i used to read alot, but these days , really don"t have the patenice anymore....
how was the book? maybe i"ll get to read it one day.....
He was the Cougar Squadron S-3 in the 2ndACR. The book is mostly about two subjects, 73 Easting, and the author's belief that they should have marched on Baghdad. His major beef is that US generals in ODS were for the most part timid and overly fearful of the Iraqi army. He uses the Battle of 73 Easting as the central example of how we could have taken Baghdad with ease, have the Iraqi rebellion of the Shi'ites and Kurds form a new govt, and therefore prevent the years of sanctions, no fly zones and finally OIF.

BTW, he advised Rumsfeld on a ground campaign for OIF.

That's the book in a very small nutshell.

For more info: http://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Rage-Gre ... 1591145058

The author's website with a presentation of the main points of his book.
BTW, I can't say I agree with all his points:
http://www.douglasmacgregor.com/
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Re: Changing History as we approach the 20th Anniversary

Post by redfish » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:32 pm

Lets talk about this then. It seems this was not a mere spam attack but a serious question. My apology if feeling were hurt.

In my humble opinion:
Each commander is different.

Case and points:
1. General Franks was in command of vii corps. He was a careful calculating general who would not take risks. Therefore on the 2nd night of storm he stopped the corps to sleep limit night movement and re-group. This infuriated norman who said get that corps moving or I'll get somebody who can.

2. General McCaffrey was in command of 24 ID . He desperately wanted combat and desired to crush all elements of the RGF. He requested several times while we were close to Bagdad to let us take the city but Norman informed him of our mission which did not include the city. We chased the RGF all the way to the cease fire. Then we still hit 'em.

All that being said, they were all under powell. His time in 'Nam dictated to him that a starting point and a completion point were required. Fast, total, leave. We did. Powel resigned before the Iraq invasion because there was not a finish point recognized which created a stall and that was similar to 'Nam and he would not get on board.

Every commander is different. In desert storm, however, they were all under Powell. Plus they all had been in 'Nam and knew they would not hold back and they wanted a quick, safe, decisive victory for God and country amen.

A better question might be: What if we had to fight with the M60 tanks instead of the mighty M1's?
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Re: Changing History as we approach the 20th Anniversary

Post by haze » Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:56 pm

redfish wrote:
General McCaffrey was in command of 24 ID . He desperately wanted combat and desired to crush all elements of the RGF. He requested several times while we were close to Bagdad to let us take the city but Norman informed him of our mission which did not include the city. We chased the RGF all the way to the cease fire. Then we still hit 'em.
i remember that.... ole McCaffrey, he sure wanted us to hit bagdad bad, i remember that they finally figured out where we was...way too close to the city for the higher ups stomach, i think. but that was"nt the plan, but if we"d be given the ok,we"d done like we did from start to finish, hard, fast, destroying anything that got in our way.
between the m60"s an the t72"s , did the marnies still used the m60"s then? , not for sure. the battles would been more close, but a well trained crew, that knows their vehicle, the ememy "s weakness(tanks) . would have the leg up on the other tank.
afterall the m60"s an t 72"s where made, designed to fight each other.
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Re: Changing History as we approach the 20th Anniversary

Post by redfish » Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:25 am

I liked McCaffrey though. Remember he came out and briefed us before g-day?
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Re: Changing History as we approach the 20th Anniversary

Post by Dagger X-Ray » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:19 pm

yes Haze, the Marines did still have some M60s.
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Re: Changing History as we approach the 20th Anniversary

Post by redfish » Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:56 pm

Yuck! Like riding an ostridge in a motorcycle race.
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